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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2014 10:25:31 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2014 13:54:58 GMT
Im sure they would work fine with the moon and plantets. DSOs would be asking a bit much of them. One thing with HD cams I still need to get my head around is this,
How does it send HD down a coax lead?
In a house tv system using coax you cannot carry a HD picture. Must see if I can find out.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2014 14:00:57 GMT
Im sure they would work fine with the moon and plantets. DSOs would be asking a bit much of them. One thing with HD cams I still need to get my head around is this, How does it send HD down a coax lead? In a house tv system using coax you cannot carry a HD picture. Must see if I can find out. I did not think about that but it must say somewhere how they achieve it for CCTV. I'll have a read up thanks Carl.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2014 14:08:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2014 15:24:39 GMT
Wow thanks Carl it looks complicated and yes expensive! What is a hybrid DVR?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2014 16:36:32 GMT
A hybrid HD DVR is basically a DVR that you can plug in both these HD cams and the Analogue cams we use at the minute.
From what I see you cant use a HD DVR with analogue cams ie Mallincam, Sammy and CR6 etc so you would require a hybrid type or your main cams wont work with it.
The way these HD cams appear to work is they send the picture as data and the circuits in the HD DVR decodes it at its end.
Hope that makes sense.
HD DVR = HD cams only.
Hybrid HD DVR = HD cams and Analogue Cams.
Your current DVR = Analogue Cams only.
Glad you brought this subject up there is a bit more to it than just buying a HD camera.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2014 17:45:08 GMT
Cheapest method I have found to get HD-sdi to a computer is a hd-sdi to hdmi adapter. Then you would need a hdmi grabber to usb. Yes hd-sdi is very expensive. Would be cheaper to just buy a mallincam SSIc or other dedicated HD planetary imager.
I to have been looking at these HD-SDI cams. Camera junk pile is looking a bit small, lol. But what I have found so far is, most of these cameras do not have manual shutter control. This is fine on a big bright moon, but would overexpose small planets. This is the same issue I am having with my pixim cameras.
Manual shutter control is a must, and these new cams just don't have that function. Everything is auto.
I also looked at the range of microscope cams out there. some of these have fantastic sensors, but the shutter is designed for lower light, they typically have a shutter that only goes to about 1/1000 of a sec. This is just too slow for bright objects. and the slowest shutter speed of 1/3 sec, to fast for DSO work.
The DSP is everything. How its configured and what controls it gives you. Knowing the DSP functionality of most of these cameras is unknown. I have several cameras with great specs that are shelved due to lack of control over the functions.
Network cams are the same too, no controls over these required functions, everything is auto.
I think we got lucky with a few of these off the shelve cameras, but I'm finding the newer cameras have better DSP's (not for us) that have better algorithms to handle most functions automatically, and do a great job at it (for its intended purpose as a cctv camera).
Stick to cameras from well known manufactures, where you can download full manuals. At least this way you can see all available functions prior to purchasing.
Sorry for the long rant. I;m sure some of these HD-SDI cams will work great, but finding the right one with all the required functions and specs is almost impossible with the limited info out there.
Hemmi
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2014 18:03:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2014 18:15:17 GMT
A hybrid HD DVR is basically a DVR that you can plug in both these HD cams and the Analogue cams we use at the minute. From what I see you cant use a HD DVR with analogue cams ie Mallincam, Sammy and CR6 etc so you would require a hybrid type or your main cams wont work with it. The way these HD cams appear to work is they send the picture as data and the circuits in the HD DVR decodes it at its end. Hope that makes sense. HD DVR = HD cams only. Hybrid HD DVR = HD cams and Analogue Cams. Your current DVR = Analogue Cams only. Glad you brought this subject up there is a bit more to it than just buying a HD camera. Thanks Carl, that makes sense and it would have to be this way! The main aim with this one is to try and get crisp clear and close up views of the Moon. I'm hoping if it is clear tomorrow night to have another crack with the bridge camera or camcorder. Cloudy tonight so I'll be researching this one further, thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2014 19:40:32 GMT
Cheers Hemmi that info is Great, very interesting thread now thanks for posting. Karl when is it ever easy?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2014 21:53:12 GMT
Cheapest method I have found to get HD-sdi to a computer is a hd-sdi to hdmi adapter. Then you would need a hdmi grabber to usb. Yes hd-sdi is very expensive. Would be cheaper to just buy a mallincam SSIc or other dedicated HD planetary imager. I to have been looking at these HD-SDI cams. Camera junk pile is looking a bit small, lol. But what I have found so far is, most of these cameras do not have manual shutter control. This is fine on a big bright moon, but would overexpose small planets. This is the same issue I am having with my pixim cameras. Manual shutter control is a must, and these new cams just don't have that function. Everything is auto. I also looked at the range of microscope cams out there. some of these have fantastic sensors, but the shutter is designed for lower light, they typically have a shutter that only goes to about 1/1000 of a sec. This is just too slow for bright objects. and the slowest shutter speed of 1/3 sec, to fast for DSO work. The DSP is everything. How its configured and what controls it gives you. Knowing the DSP functionality of most of these cameras is unknown. I have several cameras with great specs that are shelved due to lack of control over the functions. Network cams are the same too, no controls over these required functions, everything is auto. I think we got lucky with a few of these off the shelve cameras, but I'm finding the newer cameras have better DSP's (not for us) that have better algorithms to handle most functions automatically, and do a great job at it (for its intended purpose as a cctv camera). Stick to cameras from well known manufactures, where you can download full manuals. At least this way you can see all available functions prior to purchasing. Sorry for the long rant. I;m sure some of these HD-SDI cams will work great, but finding the right one with all the required functions and specs is almost impossible with the limited info out there. Hemmi Thanks Hemmi, looks like your way ahead on this one so I'll be watching with much interest to see how you get on. Can you get HD with the Mallincam upscaler? I had not considered the SSI so I'm going to look at that now.
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Post by johnno on Mar 14, 2014 22:56:52 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2014 3:34:06 GMT
If that's cheap, I want you job.....LOL
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2014 3:42:59 GMT
If anyone pays that for this monitor, they need their head examined. A 40 buck hd-sdi to hdmi adapter and a 100 buck 19-21 inch 1080p Tv and your set.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2014 11:21:28 GMT
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Post by johnno on Mar 15, 2014 12:07:14 GMT
it only had 1 bid, and I bet that was from the seller
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Post by Dragon Man on Mar 15, 2014 12:43:44 GMT
HD is useless for use on Night Skies Network because NSN doesn't broadcast in HD.
But one day someone will design a HD camera that will do long integration, have full control, and deep well depth for use on DSO's. Then it will be good for recording, You Tube, HD projectors etc. But still not for NSN.
But for manufacturers, the need isn't there so they aren't going to spend mega dollars researching and designing to only sell a few hundred units.
There are already EMCCD's but they cost anywhere from $5000 upwards to $20,000+
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Post by davy on Mar 15, 2014 12:59:53 GMT
Totally agree ken I looked into hd cams about six months ago and felt the technology was good it just lacked the couple of necessary bits we need like manual control and integration. .although I haven't jumped on board with a mallincam I have watched with interest the images and posts/reviews and believe it to be the ultimate camera for this hobby and it's my personal humble opinion with the information I have gathered at this present time..but as I haven't won the lottery yet I believe the minimum camera spec should be a sammy scb2000 and for middle of the road the phil dyer camera..but if rock reads this all donations welcome...but big congratulations to all video camera developers ,,have seen big jumps in spec over last year long may it continue. .davy
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2014 15:59:50 GMT
HD is useless for use on Night Skies Network because NSN doesn't broadcast in HD. But one day someone will design a HD camera that will do long integration, have full control, and deep well depth for use on DSO's. Then it will be good for recording, You Tube, HD projectors etc. But still not for NSN. But for manufacturers, the need isn't there so they aren't going to spend mega dollars researching and designing to only sell a few hundred units. There are already EMCCD's but they cost anywhere from $5000 upwards to $20,000+ I wouldnt say they are totally useless, but they are useless for DSO. I think some of these would make excellent planetary viewers. Just have to find one that has a decent frame rate and manual control. The sony exmor sensor is used in the Mallincam Signature. Of course this is a higher class then in the CCTV cams. Not to mention purpose built DSP etc. However my pursuit in HD is for planetary only. I would like to use a HD projector to display HD images of the moon for outreach. For this purpose, I think some of these cams may be of use.
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Post by Dragon Man on Mar 16, 2014 10:56:13 GMT
HD is useless for use on Night Skies Network because NSN doesn't broadcast in HD. But one day someone will design a HD camera that will do long integration, have full control, and deep well depth for use on DSO's. Then it will be good for recording, You Tube, HD projectors etc. But still not for NSN. But for manufacturers, the need isn't there so they aren't going to spend mega dollars researching and designing to only sell a few hundred units. There are already EMCCD's but they cost anywhere from $5000 upwards to $20,000+ I wouldnt say they are totally useless, but they are useless for DSO. I think some of these would make excellent planetary viewers. Just have to find one that has a decent frame rate and manual control. The sony exmor sensor is used in the Mallincam Signature. Of course this is a higher class then in the CCTV cams. Not to mention purpose built DSP etc. However my pursuit in HD is for planetary only. I would like to use a HD projector to display HD images of the moon for outreach. For this purpose, I think some of these cams may be of use. I agree Lee, but when I said 'useless for use on Night Skies Network', I meant because NSN doesn't broadcast HD you might as well use a cheap non HD camera because it won't make any difference in there NSN only has SD in 3 different resolutions. But yeah, HD projection and HD TV would be fantastic.
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