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Post by Rick in NWArk on Jun 16, 2014 3:10:15 GMT
This probably could be put in the Newbie section, but hey this category only had one topic
In summary, I am having a problem where I cannot get GOTO to work -- in fact, my GOTOs get worse with time. However, my tracking is pretty spot -- meaning Saturn staying in the middle of my monitor for longer than an hour at a time.
My mount is a Synscan EQ6, that I purchased used from a CN user -- advertised as "SkyWatcher HEQ6/EQ6 GEM with the SkyScan Goto system (Ver. 2.05). Same unit as Orion sold as Atlas." It is an older unit, as its black vs the newer white and the old version of the firmware on the SkyScan -- an unupgradable version in fact, as far as I have been able to tell.
Here is what happened last night, after scope setup:
3-star alignment, 2 stars on W side of meridian, 1 on east: - 1st was Regulus - quite bit off (over 2 hand widths at arms length) - 2nd was Mizar a lot closer (less than 1 hand width) - 3rd was Arcturus (not as far E as I'd like, but my E is very obscured by trees)
Arcturus was in the eyepiece (20mm) and only needed a little tweaking to get centered.
So I'm thinking I'm good, right? My polar align must be good and here we go!
I dial up Saturn aaaaaaaand its not in the eyepiece. I check and its not off by much, less than a handwidth to the SE. I get it in the eyepiece and proceed to watch it, adjust some cam settings on my Jr Pro to dial it in, play with trying to see it with a barlow, play with the Jr Pro Zoom and some other stuff like trying to get my EasyCap video capture to work by reinstalling drivers on my laptop. All in all, Saturn is sitting in my monitor for over an hour with no real positioning tweaks other than when I bump the scope when doing the Jr Pro menu or switching out barlow stuff.
So I decide to switch to Mars and of course, its not in the eyepiece. And its off by a lot more than Saturn was -- more than a handwidth -- and to the W (ahead of where it should be!) So back to Saturn and sure enough its off by about the same amount as Mars (to the W, ahead again). And naturally I go back to Arcturus and yeah its off by just as much.
This is my first EQ mount so I am inexperienced and full of self-doubt.
If its the gears, it wouldn't track Saturn so well for so long, right? If its the polar align, it wouldn't track Saturn so well right? If the time or date or some other entered setting was wrong, it wouldn't have gotten Arcturus in the eyepiece during alignment, right?
I welcome any and all suggestions as to what could be wrong with the mount or my procedure!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2014 3:35:21 GMT
Make sure to check your basic settings, Time, Date, Location. Most often the fix for the issue you described (I have done it myself before). Date was my issue not being updated by my GPS.
Good Luck Patrick
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Post by Rick in NWArk on Jun 16, 2014 4:53:49 GMT
Thanks Patrick, I do double check these as that was my first thought. I have to put in time, whether its Daylight Savings, and also my UT offset (-5 now for Central Time). The weird bit is Arcturus being in the eyepiece and Saturn only a little off, while later objects were quite a bit off and in the opposite direction. If it was time, I would think everything would be consistently off.
Head scratcher!
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Post by Dragon Man on Jun 16, 2014 5:46:47 GMT
Rick, don't panic mate! It's normal. Let me explain. I have the exact same mount and hand controller, the old black EQ6, with v2.5 (non-upgradable). I also saw the same dramas on Solar System objects as you when I first got mine back in 2004. I queried this on the internet forums at the time and found several hundred people saying they had the exact same problem. Eventually I contacted Skywatcher about it, only to be told that the hand controller software in v2 and v2.5 has inaccurate Solar System co-ordinates in the firmware, and cannot be corrected. You will find that you can get DSO's dead centre after an accurate polar alignment, but not planets and Moon. Relax. Many of us fell for the same panic. By the way, I have been using my old black EQ6 v2.5 regularly since 2004 (bought second hand at the time) and it STILL runs perfect. I leave it outside set up but covered in a towel and a sheet of plastic, and the weather has never damages it in all these years. I uncover it, mount the scope, plug in my cables and I'm up and running in minutes. I keep mine accurately polar aligned at all times. I check it quickly every time by looking in my polar scope, and it has always been spot on. The method you are using for 3 star alignment is correct. It is very important to use 2 stars on one side of the Meridian, about 15 - 30 degrees apart, and the third star in the other side of meridian , but none of them near the meridian. If you really want to get accurate Solar System GoTo's, the good news is that you can simply plug in a v3 upgradable hand controller. The bad news is, they are expensive so most people don't bother. Whenever I want to look at the Planets or Moon I simply go the a DSO that is where they are at the time. Usually there is a DSO very very close to them and then I just tweak the slew buttons to centre them It really doesn't bother me because in the 10 years I have been using this mount I have probably only looked a Moon or planets about a dozen times. I am a DSO fan, not Solar System.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2014 5:50:07 GMT
Just a stab in the dark, but are you flipping between east and west when you changed the objects. If your aligned on an object to the east, and then flip over to view an object in the west and miss it, it could just be cone error.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2014 5:52:36 GMT
Ah, seems Ken has more relevant knowledge on using your mount. I'd trust his wisdom first.
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Post by Rick in NWArk on Jun 16, 2014 6:02:39 GMT
Rick, don't panic mate! It's normal. Let me explain. I have the exact same mount and hand controller, the old black EQ6, with v2.5 (non-upgradable). I also saw the same dramas on Solar System objects as you when I first got mine back in 2004. I queried this on the internet forums at the time and found several hundred people saying they had the exact same problem. Eventually I contacted Skywatcher about it, only to be told that the hand controller software in v2 and v2.5 has inaccurate Solar System co-ordinates in the firmware, and cannot be corrected. You will find that you can get DSO's dead centre after an accurate polar alignment, but not planets and Moon. Relax. Many of us fell for the same panic. By the way, I have been using my old black EQ6 v2.5 regularly since 2004 (bought second hand at the time) and it STILL runs perfect. I leave it outside set up but covered in a towel and a sheet of plastic, and the weather has never damages it in all these years. I uncover it, mount the scope, plug in my cables and I'm up and running in minutes. I keep mine accurately polar aligned at all times. I check it quickly every time by looking in my polar scope, and it has always been spot on. The method you are using for 3 star alignment is correct. It is very important to use 2 stars on one side of the Meridian, about 15 - 30 degrees apart, and the third star in the other side of meridian , but none of them near the meridian. If you really want to get accurate Solar System GoTo's, the good news is that you can simply plug in a v3 upgradable hand controller. The bad news is, they are expensive so most people don't bother. Whenever I want to look at the Planets or Moon I simply go the a DSO that is where they are at the time. Usually there is a DSO very very close to them and then I just tweak the slew buttons to centre them It really doesn't bother me because in the 10 years I have been using this mount I have probably only looked a Moon or planets about a dozen times. I am a DSO fan, not Solar System. Ken,
Oh hell Ken, you realize I'm now going to have to go and eat crow with the wife after I assured her it couldn't be bad coordinate routines in the firmware!!
Seriously, I tried pulling up a couple of Messiers (mostly globs) with the eyepiece in and saw nothing, but maybe my polar wasn't as good as I thought? I'll try to pick better stars next time to get them further off the meridian. Maybe that'll do the trick!
Thanks for keeping my hope alive!
--Rick
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Post by Rick in NWArk on Jun 16, 2014 6:04:23 GMT
Just a stab in the dark, but are you flipping between east and west when you changed the objects. If your aligned on an object to the east, and then flip over to view an object in the west and miss it, it could just be cone error.
I'm pretty sure I was flipping appropriately, but I'll keep my eye on this too. Thank you Allan
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Post by Dragon Man on Jun 16, 2014 7:05:12 GMT
3 star alignment corrects for Cone Error About a year ago I had real GoTo dramas because I was using the wrong alignment stars. I chose to use the same 3 stars I had been using successfully for many months, then all of a sudden they stopped working and sending my GoTo's all over the place! What had happened was that as the months rolled along, one of the stars, Canopus, had reached Zenith, making it absolutely useless as an alignment star. The fix was simply to select some new stars that were in the right positions for that time of year. The best method I have found that gives me perfect GoTo's is: The first two alignment stars in the eastern Meridian about 40 degrees high and about and about 20-30 degrees apart. Then select a third star in the south-western sky (for you it would be north-western) about 30 - 40 degrees high. Avoid getting too close to the North Celestial Pole or the Meridian. Because you are in the northern hemisphere you may need to try the first two stars in the Western sky and the third in the North-East. But it is extremely important to be Polar Aligned first. You can get the 3 stars alignment correct, you can get the Mount dead-level, etc, but if you aren't Polar Aligned, you will struggle all night to get accurate GoTo's. You say you tried some Globulars as test subjects. If after this new method you still can't see any globs, it could be because they are just too faint. Test the GoTo's by going to some bright stars that you are familiar with. If the mount goes to those stars then you are correctly polar aligned and done a correct 3 star alignment.
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Post by johnno on Jun 16, 2014 16:09:59 GMT
Rick, when you're doing your star alignment and you centre it in the EP do you have a 'sync to' command on the HC.
On my iOptron mount when I do my alignments if the star is not dead centre I manually put it dead centre in the EP and then use the 'sync to' command, its that you not mentioned this and I would guess you will have a similar command in HC. just a thought
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Post by Rick in NWArk on Jun 17, 2014 0:40:04 GMT
3 star alignment corrects for Cone Error About a year ago I had real GoTo dramas because I was using the wrong alignment stars. I chose to use the same 3 stars I had been using successfully for many months, then all of a sudden they stopped working and sending my GoTo's all over the place! What had happened was that as the months rolled along, one of the stars, Canopus, had reached Zenith, making it absolutely useless as an alignment star. The fix was simply to select some new stars that were in the right positions for that time of year. The best method I have found that gives me perfect GoTo's is: The first two alignment stars in the eastern Meridian about 40 degrees high and about and about 20-30 degrees apart. Then select a third star in the south-western sky (for you it would be north-western) about 30 - 40 degrees high. Avoid getting too close to the North Celestial Pole or the Meridian. Because you are in the northern hemisphere you may need to try the first two stars in the Western sky and the third in the North-East. But it is extremely important to be Polar Aligned first. You can get the 3 stars alignment correct, you can get the Mount dead-level, etc, but if you aren't Polar Aligned, you will struggle all night to get accurate GoTo's. You say you tried some Globulars as test subjects. If after this new method you still can't see any globs, it could be because they are just too faint. Test the GoTo's by going to some bright stars that you are familiar with. If the mount goes to those stars then you are correctly polar aligned and done a correct 3 star alignment. Thanks Ken, I'll do the best I can ... I've got some big time trees that I have to work around, so my options are limited.
I tried Mag 6 Globs, e.g. M3 and M5.
I am thinking about trying to graduate to PC control via EQMod and see if I can just circumvent the hand controller.
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Post by Rick in NWArk on Jun 17, 2014 0:41:34 GMT
Rick, when you're doing your star alignment and you centre it in the EP do you have a 'sync to' command on the HC. On my iOptron mount when I do my alignments if the star is not dead centre I manually put it dead centre in the EP and then use the 'sync to' command, its that you not mentioned this and I would guess you will have a similar command in HC. just a thought I haven't seen a Sync To... once you use the arrow keys to center the object, you just hit enter and it goes to the next object.
I'll look for it tho. Thanks!
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Post by Dragon Man on Jun 17, 2014 5:20:13 GMT
No John, there is no Sync function on these hand controllers I wish! Only way to get it is to use EQmod which Rick is considering. I tried EQmod and found it very inaccurate. So I went back to my hand controller.
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Post by Rick in NWArk on Jun 17, 2014 22:22:33 GMT
Ken, I'm also going to give EQAlign a try and see if that helps me.
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Post by Dragon Man on Jun 18, 2014 5:13:30 GMT
OK Rick, good luck. Let us know how you go
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Post by Rick in NWArk on Jun 27, 2014 6:06:14 GMT
Well, back from vacation and luckily had a nice clear night, so I thought I would try my luck without trying the PC hookup. I'm now convinced more than ever that my mount is fubar'd. That said, it could still be me -- I'm extremely limited in the NE, E, and SE by trees. I have a hole that I can see Altair rise but its not an option in my alignment star list. So I end up having to rely on stars closer to the meridian than is optimal.
That said I still see the scope seem almost clueless at times about where objects are -- and I stuck to deep sky.
I also took the time to watch my tracking closer and am noticing that objects overhead are tracking off the screen. I'll keep an eye on this.
At the end of the day, I feel like I just got a bum mount from a guy on CN Classifieds. This may just have to turn into a planetary and bright object mount, as I am just not a good star hopper. It certainly limits what I could do in a live broadcast.
Not totally giving up yet. I want to try computer control. I also want to see about getting out to a dark site where I can really give it a go with a good alignment.
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Post by Dragon Man on Jun 27, 2014 6:50:06 GMT
That is bad news Rick. Have you done a Maintenance strip, Clean, and rebuild on your mount? Sometimes a good clean out of the crappy Chinese Grease and a re-grease with good axle grease helps, plus an adjustment to all the RA and Dec alignments. They can be critical on correct gear mesh and reducing backlash. The AstroBaby website is a godsend for us EQ6 owners. Astrobaby goes through maintenance and rebuilds, upgrades etc in fine detail and all clearly written. She supplies great photos of each step and makes it a breeze to do. Even non-mechanical people rebuild their EQ6's using her tutorials. There is this warning issued: CAUTION - The EQ6 is a very tough challenge and unless you have a fair degree of technical ability I would advise against attempting a rebuild. However, you can with a modicum of tools and some patience tune the worm gear to reduce play in the mounts axis.But believe me, the whole process is really simple to do. She writes that to cover herself in case someone does something really stupid and damages their mount. They can't sue her. But it is easy.
Here: www.astro-baby.com/EQ6%20rebuild%20guide/EQ6%20Strip%20Down%20Home.htm
and here is her whole website which could be handy for others: www.astro-baby.com/astro_baby_telescope_help_and_advice.htm
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Post by Rick in NWArk on Jun 28, 2014 5:12:40 GMT
Ken, I have not done anything to the mount other than normal setup procedures that are both in the manual and the excellent YouTube videos by AstronomyShed.
I'll keep at it and keep in touch on the situation.
Worst case scenario is that it could be a mount for visible objects (planets and more common DSOs)...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 12:26:14 GMT
Hi Rick just another thought. Have you checked the polar scope is aligned with the mount if you have one?
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Post by Rick in NWArk on Jul 11, 2014 0:58:52 GMT
Carl, I've worked a lot with the polar scope to get it dialed in decently -- at least I'm pretty sure I have. I haven't given up on this one yet, but after witnessing my frustration, the boss (wife) suggested I just get a different mount. So I got the VX. The EQ6 is now my project mount, heh.
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