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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2017 14:55:41 GMT
For a while now, I've been using SharpCap for image capture and Astrotoaster for live-stacking and image adjustments; I love this combination since it works well for my EAA needs. I am using a C14Edge at F/2 with Hyperstar and the ASI1600MC-Cool camera with IDAS LP filter. Please see my Astrobin page for my images taken with this combo. www.astrobin.com/users/robinandcurtis/How do I create and apply Darks and Flats in Astrotoaster? I have used SharpCap to create a master dark .fits file but I'm not sure how to use it in Astrotoaster, since AT wants the dark in a picture format (TIFF, etc.). So I converted the master dark .fits file to a TIFF, and loaded that into AT with my "light" frames (all taken using same camera settings, of course). But I didn't see any difference when I included the Dark TIFF versus when I didn't. What differences should I notice when a dark is applied? Also, how do I create and use a Flat? If I'm only going to use one type of calibration file (Dark, Flat, etc.), which type would give me the best improvement with my light frames? I'm thinking that since my camera is cooled, and I shoot mostly at Gain 250/Brightness 45, perhaps there is not so much need to use a dark frame? Thanks.
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Post by Dragon Man on Feb 2, 2017 16:31:54 GMT
Dark Frames are a weird invention Robin. I have noticed that on some objects they help, and others they hinder. I did some darks last week with a 224 camera and it helped on some and killed others. It's a matter of trial and error.
Sorry I can't help with info about Astrotoaster as I don't have it.
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Post by howie1 on Feb 2, 2017 20:50:09 GMT
Hi Robin, Long time since doing it but pretty sure memory has it right. Chrisv on this forum has done some recently so may chime in to help you also if I have it wrong. Firstly ... I know people who use SC and/or Firecapture to simply take the frames and save them somewhere and then use AT to display, as it (at the time I watched people doing this) iAT gave better color adjustments and better final image. So I'd be wary of using a SC created dark in AT which has a different method to produce a master dark. IE I'd do the darks and flats in Toaster. Two main methods in Toaster ... but I''ll just do one for now * Cover the scope or light up the scope for flats. * Set the folder to save the darks to be another folder and NOT the one which Toaster monitors. The common thing is to create the folder named like this ... asi1600g220s30 for instance. IE a folder for trapping the warm pixels resulting from gain of 220 and 30 seconds exposure which would be different to that produced at gain 135 and exposure of 180 secs. Etc. Some folk go to the trouble of even doing different ones at different temperatures. Up to you. * Shoot 10 or however many darks/flats you want into that non-Monitored "Darks" or whatever folder. Make the naming convention simple like "dark" so SharpCap adds on its prefix ala dark_dateOrWhateverBitsSharpcapTacksOnHere. * Navigate to that folder and rename the files if they have underscores in the name. AT doesnt like underscores in my version of AT. Even though the final master dark it auto creates does contain underscores (I think - dont hold me to that). I used to simply call each one like the folder ala darkn1 through n10 or whatever. Dont make them long names. Highlight all those files and drag and drop them into the Toaster File List window. * It will ask you are these Lights, Darks, Flats etc ... choose whichever it is. You will see them appear in the AT filelist marked as darks, flats etc. * Then in the File List right hand side menu you will see a button "Recalibrate Stack" ... hover over it and you will see it offers hover help which says Recalibrate darks, flats etc ... so click that. * AT/DSS will create a master dark in the "darks" etc folder in which you originally shot those 10 or whatever darks/flats. In my example that would be the asi1600g220s30 folder. AND ... the Master Dark will be loaded into the AT file list ready for use in your subsequent shots. It will be automatically named according to the image files metadata itself ... IE it reads the properties of those images which contains the camera gain, exposure times etc they were taken at and automatically puts that info into the Master Dark filename for you. Don't be concerned if for a 30 sec dark you see the automatically created master dark filename be called something like MasterDark_ASI1600_GAIN220_34SECS ie says 34 seconds and not 30 secs. It still uses it if you shoot 30 secs. * You can later on navigate to the 'darks' folder (asi1600g220s30) and delete the 10 or so original dark frames leaving just the Master Dark for future use. * Speaking of future use ... Then next time you are out doing EAA and shooting gain220 and 30 secs and want a dark just click the file list button which says Calibration files, and navigate off to your asi1600g220s30 folder and select the Master Dark file and on selection it will ask if it is a dark, flat etc ... select which it is and it will load that in for use. * Lastly, you can load numbers of master darks into the filelist ... lets say you load in 10 dark files covering asi1600 gain 135 for 90 secs through to gain 200 for 90 secs ... then you simply take your lights at any of those gain settings and AT/DSS will automatically choose the correct or nearest dark to use with whatever setting you shot the light at. IE No need to add darks or flats to the file list and then when you change camera settings remove them from the list ... just leave them there. And just remember that if you do right click a file in the file list the difference between the Remove and the Delete option is Remove just gets them out of the File List and still leaves them on disk in their original place, while Delete removes them from the File List AND also deletes them from the original place. Beware! There's another way of using DSS to create the master darks ... but I won't confuse the post and say how to do that this time cheers Aussie Howie
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Post by ChrisV on Feb 2, 2017 22:19:43 GMT
With a zwo camera i have just started usibg sharpcap for this. The latest version does both darks and flats. Its pretty simple - just follow the instructions under capture.
Once you do that it will pre process your shots with the darks/flats. So then you can stack in sharpcap or AT. The stacking histogram is also improved in sharpcap so you might give that a try now.
I make a library of darks as Howie says.
For flats I remake before each season as it depends on what's in your light train (reducers filter etc). I just point at the sky (whinge = don't remember what this looks like) while it's still light. Use low gain and alter exposure to set light histogram level>50%.
Howie mentions that it might be better to process lights with darks and flats in AT. This might well be the case. I haven't had a chance to compare as the new version of sharpcap only came out a week or so ago
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Post by ChrisV on Feb 2, 2017 22:25:55 GMT
Dark Frames are a weird invention Robin. I have noticed that on some objects they help, and others they hinder. I did some darks last week with a 224 camera and it helped on some and killed others. It's a matter of trial and error. Sorry I can't help with info about Astrotoaster as I don't have it. Yes I found same with the 224. I'm guessing it's temperature changes after you take the darks. Then stacking and stretching emphasises changes in amp glow ?? Maybe. Never did figure it out though
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2017 19:43:26 GMT
Hi Robin, Long time since doing it but pretty sure memory has it right. Chrisv on this forum has done some recently so may chime in to help you also if I have it wrong. Firstly ... I know people who use SC and/or Firecapture to simply take the frames and save them somewhere and then use AT to display, as it (at the time I watched people doing this) iAT gave better color adjustments and better final image. So I'd be wary of using a SC created dark in AT which has a different method to produce a master dark. IE I'd do the darks and flats in Toaster. Two main methods in Toaster ... but I''ll just do one for now * Cover the scope or light up the scope for flats. * Set the folder to save the darks to be another folder and NOT the one which Toaster monitors. The common thing is to create the folder named like this ... asi1600g220s30 for instance. IE a folder for trapping the warm pixels resulting from gain of 220 and 30 seconds exposure which would be different to that produced at gain 135 and exposure of 180 secs. Etc. Some folk go to the trouble of even doing different ones at different temperatures. Up to you. * Shoot 10 or however many darks/flats you want into that non-Monitored "Darks" or whatever folder. Make the naming convention simple like "dark" so SharpCap adds on its prefix ala dark_dateOrWhateverBitsSharpcapTacksOnHere. * Navigate to that folder and rename the files if they have underscores in the name. AT doesnt like underscores in my version of AT. Even though the final master dark it auto creates does contain underscores (I think - dont hold me to that). I used to simply call each one like the folder ala darkn1 through n10 or whatever. Dont make them long names. Highlight all those files and drag and drop them into the Toaster File List window. * It will ask you are these Lights, Darks, Flats etc ... choose whichever it is. You will see them appear in the AT filelist marked as darks, flats etc. * Then in the File List right hand side menu you will see a button "Recalibrate Stack" ... hover over it and you will see it offers hover help which says Recalibrate darks, flats etc ... so click that. * AT/DSS will create a master dark in the "darks" etc folder in which you originally shot those 10 or whatever darks/flats. In my example that would be the asi1600g220s30 folder. AND ... the Master Dark will be loaded into the AT file list ready for use in your subsequent shots. It will be automatically named according to the image files metadata itself ... IE it reads the properties of those images which contains the camera gain, exposure times etc they were taken at and automatically puts that info into the Master Dark filename for you. Don't be concerned if for a 30 sec dark you see the automatically created master dark filename be called something like MasterDark_ASI1600_GAIN220_34SECS ie says 34 seconds and not 30 secs. It still uses it if you shoot 30 secs. * You can later on navigate to the 'darks' folder (asi1600g220s30) and delete the 10 or so original dark frames leaving just the Master Dark for future use. * Speaking of future use ... Then next time you are out doing EAA and shooting gain220 and 30 secs and want a dark just click the file list button which says Calibration files, and navigate off to your asi1600g220s30 folder and select the Master Dark file and on selection it will ask if it is a dark, flat etc ... select which it is and it will load that in for use. * Lastly, you can load numbers of master darks into the filelist ... lets say you load in 10 dark files covering asi1600 gain 135 for 90 secs through to gain 200 for 90 secs ... then you simply take your lights at any of those gain settings and AT/DSS will automatically choose the correct or nearest dark to use with whatever setting you shot the light at. IE No need to add darks or flats to the file list and then when you change camera settings remove them from the list ... just leave them there. And just remember that if you do right click a file in the file list the difference between the Remove and the Delete option is Remove just gets them out of the File List and still leaves them on disk in their original place, while Delete removes them from the File List AND also deletes them from the original place. Beware! There's another way of using DSS to create the master darks ... but I won't confuse the post and say how to do that this time cheers Aussie Howie Thanks for the detailed instructions! I will plan to try it out next time. One question: when I take my darks in SharpCap, can they be created in the .FITS format? For example, create 10 dark frames named dark1.fits, dark2.fits, etc.? Or should I create them in some other format (PNG?). My lights are always in .FITS format. Just wondering. Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2017 19:47:35 GMT
With a zwo camera i have just started usibg sharpcap for this. The latest version does both darks and flats. Its pretty simple - just follow the instructions under capture. Once you do that it will pre process your shots with the darks/flats. So then you can stack in sharpcap or AT. The stacking histogram is also improved in sharpcap so you might give that a try now. I make a library of darks as Howie says. For flats I remake before each season as it depends on what's in your light train (reducers filter etc). I just point at the sky (whinge = don't remember what this looks like) while it's still light. Use low gain and alter exposure to set light histogram level>50%. Howie mentions that it might be better to process lights with darks and flats in AT. This might well be the case. I haven't had a chance to compare as the new version of sharpcap only came out a week or so ago Thanks for your comments. I will just follow Howie's advice to create the darks or flats in AT. If I'm only going to create one type of calibration files, I'm wondering if darks are really necessary with my cooled camera? Perhaps I'd get more of an improvement with using flats? It's a one-shot-color (OSC) ASI1600MC-Cool. Not sure which type of calibration files would give me the most improvement. I have to say, though, that I've been really happy with the results I've gotten without using any calibration files at all. But since AT offers a way to use them, I'd like to try it out. Thanks.
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Post by howie1 on Feb 5, 2017 7:07:14 GMT
Hi Robin, Flats are what you need if you have vignetting. Darks are what you need if you see lots of hot red/blue/green pixels in the stretched image. Re your question on darks/flats file format. You have to create them in the same format as your lights. That's because in Toaster's settings, you set the file type dropdown to tell Toaster what type of files to look for in the Monitored folder. So if you have set Toaster to look in the Monitor folder for .fits, then you'll need .fits for all shots which you deposit into the Monitor folder ... lights, darks, flats whatever all have to be .fits. If they arent .fits then Toaster will ignore them even though they are in the Monitor folder. If you do find DSS (which actually creates the Master dark and flat etc) cannot work with .fits from the ASI, then you may have to swap and shoot everything in some other format available in both SC and AT file type dropdowns. Have fun trying it out. We await seeing your set of images titled ... N x 10 images with no darks .... N x 10 images with darks and letting us all take a peek cheers Howie (the Aussie one).
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Post by ChrisV on Feb 5, 2017 8:57:45 GMT
Yes. Do both. As Howie says. You need flats for the vignetting. And since you have a cooled camera you can make a library of darks anytime and use later.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2017 12:03:42 GMT
I’ve been using Astrotoaster/Deep Sky Stacker with my GStar Ex3. Although it has some powerful processing tools I use it mainly as a viewer. I like it because – 1. It allows easy setup of an uncluttered full screen view. 2. The stacker runs unobtrusively in the full-screen background while you are looking at an object for as long or as short as you wnt. 3. Deep Sky Stacker is smart. For this session I used a Skywatcher 102/500 achromat on a Star Discovery Alt-Az mount (can’t get more basic than that) – lapped it up. 4. You can replay your imaging session later. Here are a few print screens from a replay using the alt-az set up. Exposures were 5-20s, stacks 10 or less.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2017 17:19:47 GMT
Hi Robin, Flats are what you need if you have vignetting. Darks are what you need if you see lots of hot red/blue/green pixels in the stretched image. Re your question on darks/flats file format. You have to create them in the same format as your lights. That's because in Toaster's settings, you set the file type dropdown to tell Toaster what type of files to look for in the Monitored folder. So if you have set Toaster to look in the Monitor folder for .fits, then you'll need .fits for all shots which you deposit into the Monitor folder ... lights, darks, flats whatever all have to be .fits. If they arent .fits then Toaster will ignore them even though they are in the Monitor folder. If you do find DSS (which actually creates the Master dark and flat etc) cannot work with .fits from the ASI, then you may have to swap and shoot everything in some other format available in both SC and AT file type dropdowns. Have fun trying it out. We await seeing your set of images titled ... N x 10 images with no darks .... N x 10 images with darks and letting us all take a peek cheers Howie (the Aussie one). DSS and AT work great with the .fits files from my ASI camera, so I will plan to create the darks or flats in .fits format as well for AT. I'll probably just start with darks, since I don't have issues with vignetting. The only "issue" is that when I use Bin1x1, each .fits file is 32MB, and if I have a bunch of them to stack, AT can be a bit slow to process them. Of course, I can always capture at Bin2x2 (maintains color) and then each fits file is only 8MB, which allows AT to work faster, with some loss of resolution though. So I do have options. Here is a recent shot of M42 and the Running Man, stacked and processed entirely in AT. This image consists of 80x15 sec subs and 80x1 sec subs with my C14Edge at F2 (Hyperstar) and ASI1600MC-Cool camera with IDAS LPS D1 filter. If you zoom in on this image and look around, you will see some blue and red pixel artifacts (either dots or streaks). Will these artifacts be removed by using darks? I guess I'll have to take some darks at the same gain/offset settings I used (250/45) and try using a master dark to see for myself. Thanks.
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Post by howie1 on Feb 5, 2017 23:22:14 GMT
Beaut M42 Robin! Yes, darks n such seem to push the PC's hard! As per your, or maybe Chris' comments in previous post ... your 1600 is cooled. So do you see a definite improvement in reducing hot pixels when you compare with and without darks? If you don't see much improvement (or there aren't many hot pixels due the cooler) ... then maybe you just stack? ... IE no darks? Stacking also takes up heaps of PC grunt Unfortunately. But then I suppose DSS/Toaster is not only analysing each pixel in the big Mb RAW files and overlaying and averaging, but also aligning and derotating, and then cropping the edges of the image so they all display as one nice rectangular, sharp image. But, yes, its slow with any RAW type file and why I shoot Jpegs and single ones wherever I can LOL ! Great result with M42 though! cheers Howie (the Aussie one).
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Post by howie1 on Feb 5, 2017 23:30:54 GMT
I’ve been using Astrotoaster/Deep Sky Stacker with my GStar Ex3. Although it has some powerful processing tools I use it mainly as a viewer. I like it because – 1. It allows easy setup of an uncluttered full screen view. 2. The stacker runs unobtrusively in the full-screen background while you are looking at an object for as long or as short as you wnt. 3. Deep Sky Stacker is smart. For this session I used a Skywatcher 102/500 achromat on a Star Discovery Alt-Az mount (can’t get more basic than that) – lapped it up. 4. You can replay your imaging session later. Here are a few print screens from a replay using the alt-az set up. Exposures were 5-20s, stacks 10 or less. Good images Robert, and a great summary of "likes". Mark George in NZ also gets great results with Alt Az. The new USB sensitive cam's + DSS/AT (or SharpCap) open up so many possibilities for doing nearly live and in colour "observing".
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2017 3:10:24 GMT
Beaut M42 Robin! Yes, darks n such seem to push the PC's hard! As per your, or maybe Chris' comments in previous post ... your 1600 is cooled. So do you see a definite improvement in reducing hot pixels when you compare with and without darks? If you don't see much improvement (or there aren't many hot pixels due the cooler) ... then maybe you just stack? ... IE no darks? Stacking also takes up heaps of PC grunt Unfortunately. But then I suppose DSS/Toaster is not only analysing each pixel in the big Mb RAW files and overlaying and averaging, but also aligning and derotating, and then cropping the edges of the image so they all display as one nice rectangular, sharp image. But, yes, its slow with any RAW type file and why I shoot Jpegs and single ones wherever I can LOL ! Great result with M42 though! cheers Howie (the Aussie one). Thanks Howie! I stacked a few of my images again, this time with a master dark applied. The differences are subtle. The image with the master dark applied does eliminate the few hot pixels that were present in the original image, and the background does appear to be a bit darker. But overall so far I'm finding the differences are subtle. Based on these findings, I will probably only use a master dark occasionally.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 19:04:45 GMT
Hey Guys, Got a quick question about astrotoaster... Im getting an error...Its saying it cant read/write to the DSS folder. Any ideas?
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Post by davy on Feb 13, 2017 21:07:28 GMT
Have you watched Howie's tutorial
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Post by howie1 on Feb 14, 2017 0:17:39 GMT
Hi hoops86 ... try the following ...
1. Very common with older versions of DSS. So uninstall your current version, and then download the latest DSS version from the web. Then install that version.
Then check the following ...
2. Navigate to the actual DeepSkyStacker folder (where it installed itself - mines on OS>Program Files (x86)) and then check if the folder is called deepSkyStacker or DeepSkyStacker (note the capital "D" or lower case "d" as the first letter). Whichever it is ... make sure the setting in Toaster matches ... IE capital or lowercase.
If still doesnt work then ...
3. Uninstall DSS and then make sure you re-install as Administrator plus check the above things.
And last resort ...
4. Uninstall DSS and then re-install as Administrator placing it into a folder on your Desktop. Then change the Toaster settings to point to that Desktop folder where you installed DSS to.
Cheers Howie (the Aussie one)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2017 14:49:42 GMT
Ok thanks a lot guys! I'll try the above suggestions and see how I get on!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 10:56:25 GMT
Hi Everyone -
I see that there has not been a post to this thread in about a year and a half, so I'm not sure if anyone is still monitoring it. I'm brand new to using astrotoaster and I watched Howie's amazing tutorial on youtube. As far a I can tell, I followed the setup and operating instructions but I must have missed something as the viewer in Astrotoaster is not pulling in the images that sharp cap is saving. I can see the images in the folder, the format is right (FITS) as to what astrotoaster should look for, but nothing comes in. Does it have something to do with sharp cap creating subfolders under the main folder?
thanks in advance for any help and advice,
Patrick
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Post by davy on Oct 23, 2018 16:07:18 GMT
Hi Patrick, I haven't been doing a lot of astronomy as late,, ok,, nearly nothing as weather hasn't been friendly,, So may be a bit vague on info .
You need astrotoaster to monitor the folder sharpcap sends it's images to ,, then you need to specify a different folder for astrotoaster to send to,, I really hadn't had any problems using astrotoaster, Howie done a pretty comprehensive tutorial. Maybe take some screenshots and post them in so we can look at your settings.
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