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Post by Rick in NWArk on Jun 10, 2015 13:27:42 GMT
I thought that my target purchase for super high quality Narrowband / B&W / Monochrome viewing and broadcasting was going to be the ATIK 460EX MONO. This is the camera that Tom (SoIN) uses with his 180mm (TEC?) refractor for his incredible broadcasts. The problem is that the camera is about $2500US.
Last night, I had the chance to watch Chris (Astrogate) broadcast his testing and demonstration of the Mallincam SkyRaider DSm (deep space monochrome) and boy was it amazing.
Chris is in Toronto and thus uses a Lumicon filter for normal observing because of the heavy sky pollution. His configuration was his VRC10" the front part of the MFR-5, and then the Lumicon filter for the first half of the night before switching over to an Orion Ha narrowband filter for the remainder of the night.
The dark field subtraction had a very marked difference. Chris would turn it on and off for comparison and I can say that this camera does not have a lot of amp glow, but what little there is will be removed along with the warm pixels. It was a short process to save the dark field; in fact he was able to do it while getting the telescope ready. He used the same dark field throughout the 2.5 hours that I watched, even when switching filters.
The views were very very nice... and this is without the direct video feed to NSN, so there were a few times where you could see some image degradation due to WebCamMAX. These reminded me very much of the images that Tom (SoIN) broadcasts, but at a fraction of the price.
Of course, everyone is looking forward to seeing the color camera perform and how the dark field subtraction will impact the image.
But until that comes, I highly recommend trying to catch one of Chris's broadcasts to see the capabilities of these new cameras.
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Post by davy on Jun 10, 2015 16:15:02 GMT
Drdave put up a link in nsn facebook to watch the broadcast
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Post by davy on Jun 11, 2015 0:18:24 GMT
Watched part of the broadcast on utube..good intresting stuff looking forwards to seeing the rest of them
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Post by Rick in NWArk on Jun 11, 2015 0:47:55 GMT
Yep. It looks like Mallincam is looking to stomp Astro-Video before he can get going, the Loadestars, and the ZWOs. The software looks like it will cut into Bill's Miloslick and Kyle's AstroLive business as well. Supposedly it will be able to guide too. And hook into NSN. No word on hooking into VA Live.
It will be interesting to watch how it turns out.
I'm glad I didnt buy an Exterminator. I could almost get all the SkyRaider cameras for the price of it.
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Post by davy on Jun 11, 2015 6:38:24 GMT
Healthy competition is always good for the buyer, it also pushes on the next development. .its great astromers have a new camera too use, I hear a colour version will be released, can't wait to see that in action.
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Post by Dragon Man on Jun 11, 2015 13:35:46 GMT
I was watching Chris's broadcast too (you can see me in the conversation in video 3 or 4, I forget which one) Yes, it was a fantastic result! The dark field correction was incredible. Not to be confused with dark Frame subtraction (they are different). Chris pushed the exposure time and the AGC to high levels and there was still no noticeable noise. Amazing.
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Post by Rick in NWArk on Jun 15, 2015 16:39:02 GMT
I had an outreach event on Friday and using my Jr. Pro I could only think of how much better everything would look without all the hot/warm pixels.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 1:50:31 GMT
Hi Rick,
I to watched all the video's of Chris's broadcast. Very interesting and some nice images,glad to see another new product becoming available. However I was not as impressed as some are here and elsewhere.
Seemed to me the signal was narrow and tall in all the histograms, and being clipped on the black side automatically by either the camera or software. About the same results I get with my SX X2 mono when I clip it to much, and raise the gamma up in post processing. Seems like it is losing a lot of info, faint stars etc in exchange for a black smooth background?
I was hoping for a X2 with gain, but the added gain seems to be offset by the clipping from every image I've seen. Plus the time it takes to refresh, and not having the ability to adjust on the fly (having to wait for interlaced is a deal killer for me for nrtv. The short exposures are great, but not all of us use a 10" scope at f3.7 and exposures would be much longer for same results. And if I just want to image, I'm going to use my 450d, much bigger fov and better resolution. Don't want to be a wet blanket, just not going to jump on this bandwagon just yet. In the meantime waiting for some actual reports from average users.
Richard
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Post by Dragon Man on Jun 22, 2015 7:11:06 GMT
Yeah, the interlacing will annoy a few folks but most seem happy to put up with it. Orders are flying into Jack for them.
It's really hard to know how good this camera will be when it has only been tested by one user who hasn't learnt all the settings yet. Same with any camera. Some users will get better results than others. And only the Mono has been tested. No-one knows what the colour camera will be like yet. Time will tell as others get to use it. One person's test is not a great example.
The Histogram was a narrow peak probably because of where Chris had the Brightness and Contrast sliders set. It really needs less brightness and more contrast, then the Histo peak will widen and preserve more data.
Give it a couple of weeks and we'll no doubt see results from other users because the camera is available for purchase to anyone from this coming weekend.
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Post by Rick in NWArk on Jun 22, 2015 14:25:32 GMT
Hi Rick, I to watched all the video's of Chris's broadcast. Very interesting and some nice images,glad to see another new product becoming available. However I was not as impressed as some are here and elsewhere. Seemed to me the signal was narrow and tall in all the histograms, and being clipped on the black side automatically by either the camera or software. About the same results I get with my SX X2 mono when I clip it to much, and raise the gamma up in post processing. Seems like it is losing a lot of info, faint stars etc in exchange for a black smooth background? I was hoping for a X2 with gain, but the added gain seems to be offset by the clipping from every image I've seen. Plus the time it takes to refresh, and not having the ability to adjust on the fly (having to wait for interlaced is a deal killer for me for nrtv. The short exposures are great, but not all of us use a 10" scope at f3.7 and exposures would be much longer for same results. And if I just want to image, I'm going to use my 450d, much bigger fov and better resolution. Don't want to be a wet blanket, just not going to jump on this bandwagon just yet. In the meantime waiting for some actual reports from average users. Richard All excellent points, Richard. Here is my 2 cents, for what it's worth and this is just me, understand: I consider these cameras to be specific entries into the more competitive areas of Video/NRTV -- specifically the ZRO and Lodestar cameras. Rock is obviously not going after SBIG or ATIK et al., but is instead targeting these. I still believe that the Xterminator is the top of the line camera. I know we havent seen the SkyRaider DSc yet, but I do not think that it will be quite where the Xterminator is at. I think there are a lot of people worried that they just spent north of $1500 on an Xterminator and then Rock comes out with these SkyRaiders at $700 that are potentially just as sensitive. Rock is in between himself and a hard place because he doesnt want to curb the enthusiasm for the new cameras. I've already seen a couple of Xterminators hit the market by folks who are obviously sold on the SkyRaider DS series. Potentially pre-maturely. The interesting question in my mind is that if you already have a computing board in the Jr Pro/X/X2/Xterminator, then how hard is it to add dark field reduction to it? Can it be added with progressive scan so there is not the interlace delay? Why not add it to these cameras? I think it gets back to competition. Rock is looking to take a chunk out of ZRO and especially Lodestar. Personally, for me, I have a new telescope (Explore Scientific AR-152). Its a achromatic scope and I am looking forward to applying some of Ken's techniques. However, I am also very interested in H-alpha viewing. So I wanted to have a sensitive mono camera. I am in love with Tom(SoIn)'s ATIK camera on his 180 APO, but that combo is more than I'm willing to invest. So a $700 SkyRaider DSm looks to be good enough for me vs the $2500 ATIK 460Ex Mono. Being someone who does outreach events as well, I am a little concerned about the interlace delay but I am hoping most of my objects will not need 30s exposures. I'm far more concerned about figuring out the logistics of how to get my scope focused in the camera. I have focus issues often. But I really believe that overall, this will be a great camera for me for both outreach and my own observing / research. On the color side, I'm not very happy with my Jr Pro. The hot / warm pixels are very bad. I also dislike the wireless timer. It still, a year later, confuses me and I have not tried using Miloslick with it because I'm afraid it will confuse me more. I am not jumping in with both feet on the SkyRaider - I want to see the DSc color broadcasts before I consider replacing my Jr Pro with that camera. Its still possible that I could go Xterminator. At some point, you can only have so many computers at an outreach event and I usually have just one. I'm not sure how I feel about having two. So guiding better work on the same computer because I certainly dont want 3 computers (for two scopes). Sorry this ended up being so long. --Rick
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Post by Rick in NWArk on Jun 22, 2015 14:37:22 GMT
Yeah, the interlacing will annoy a few folks but most seem happy to put up with it. Orders are flying into Jack for them. It's really hard to know how good this camera will be when it has only been tested by one user who hasn't learnt all the settings yet. Same with any camera. Some users will get better results than others. And only the Mono has been tested. No-one knows what the colour camera will be like yet. Time will tell as others get to use it. One person's test is not a great example. The Histogram was a narrow peak probably because of where Chris had the Brightness and Contrast sliders set. It really needs less brightness and more contrast, then the Histo peak will widen and preserve more data. Give it a couple of weeks and we'll no doubt see results from other users because the camera is available for purchase to anyone from this coming weekend. The other thing to consider is his use of filters. Naturally, for his Ha work, it will be extremely narrow (7mm narrowband filter), but he also uses a Lumicon filter, I believe, to cut his Toronto light pollution.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 17:55:21 GMT
Hi Ken/Rick, I think the Xterminator will remain the most sensitive camera in Rock's line. The Atiks are CCD camera's and in a different class, much higher resolution. What is a ZRO? I have not heard of this one? Congrat's on the new scope Rick, a 6" apo is an awesome instrument. Can't wait to see some images taken with your 450d through it! I'm still trying to figure my 450d out, biggest problem is my mount/tracking. Going to take it a part this week and clean/lube/adjust it. To much dec backlash. I'm hoping sony comes out with a bigger version of their 828/829 sensor. not holding my breath though. As far as filters, I use the exact same ones with the X2, still get more faint stars detail. Tom's images using his 7" Apo and atik 460 are something to behold, as are DrDaves with his 11" & Xterminator. Given conditions (Joberg has very heavy light pollution) really amazing how deep he can go. Attached is an image of M57 with my 10"RC at f6 with no darks, no stacking, no post processing. Just a single raw image using LL at 1500mm fl and no guiding. Focus could have been better, I still have no mask for the any of my scopes, next on my list. Lots of room for improvement, first time I used the X2 in the 10". Richard
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 18:04:47 GMT
Here is a couple of M13 with no dark frames, first has black slider all the way to left and white all the way right. Second one has black just to the base of the signal (almost clipping signal, just clipping noise). Both 2 second exposures.
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Post by Rick in NWArk on Jun 23, 2015 3:08:36 GMT
Sorry if I misspoke, but my 6" is an achro not an APO so I will be using Ken's technique to eliminate the false color when using my Jr Pro. I've not yet gotten my Canon to work with live views.
Those are real nice images, Richard. Love the round stars. I can't get anything close to that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2015 14:45:03 GMT
Hi Rick,
I would not try to do live viewing with the canon, (though I've seen it done) just imaging. My mistake about the APO part,still a 6" achro can be excellent! If you like round stars the SX X2 is the way to go. I really like the mono version, more resolution than the color. With your 6" and a Ha filter would be awesome combo for objects like M16 etc. I have a larger refractor on my want list, going to have to wait a while. The new Astrotech 130mm EDT has caught my eye. I will wait though and let someone else be the beta tester, only after I see several reviews would I bite. My next big investment is going to be to build a larger eq mount for imaging with my 10" RC. Probably will take a year or two so I will limp along with my G11 until then.
Richard
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Post by Rick in NWArk on Jun 23, 2015 22:59:46 GMT
Richard,
Thanks for the suggestions! I wish we had a Spring that had more clear nights so that I could actually test and try different ideas!!
I really need a 50# - 60# capable mount, my SynScan6 45# is just too frustrating. That's going with the adage of keeping at 50% mount capacity. Frankly, with video I think you can take it to 75% without issues. I am going to have to bite the bullet and layout some ca$h, I'm afraid.
--Rick
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2015 23:58:30 GMT
Hi Rick,
I would go for the largest capacity mount you can afford. Weight is one issue, but just as important is focal length your trying to view/image at. Problem is most mounts that can carry 60# or less (visual) will need to be tuned to get the performance required for really good imaging. My G11 is rated 60#, but I found in stock form it is only good for short focal length under 1000mm and about 25# for imaging. And the next step up in capacity and tracking starts at around 5k. I figure I can build a proper imaging mount for less than that with a capacity way beyond what I will ever own or need. I bought a set of Byers 11-1/8" hand lapped gear sets, and am trying to decide on 4" or 6" shafts. Going on a pier in the yard so will be a permanent setup. I'm hoping I can tune the G11 to handle 1500mm focal length, and if need be stick in better worm gear to get to 2000mm. Right now I am really pushing it at over 40# with 10" and guide scope, cameras etc. The weight sure adds up quick! Are you using focal reduction in your 8"?
Richard
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Post by Rick in NWArk on Jun 24, 2015 17:57:57 GMT
Richard,
I do the vast majority of the time. If I am in the mood to do planetary, I will not and I can also do the Ring and a couple other very small planetary nebulae.
I have been using my 80EDT a lot more as of late... it has a nice 480mm native focal length and even with extensions I can keep it under 600. I started working on a object library to align to a planned effective focal length -- basically, what objects should I go after with a specific setup to show a nice sized image.
--Rick
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 11:49:55 GMT
Hi Rick,
Short fl refractors sure are handy! Have you tried your 450d in your 80mm? I have yet to try mine in my 70mm or 110mm.
Richard
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Post by Rick in NWArk on Jun 25, 2015 13:32:15 GMT
I have not yet... was going to with my next solar session to get a feel for the focus/spacing, etc.
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