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Post by howie1 on Jun 7, 2019 0:48:26 GMT
After releasing just 60 or so, with two thousand or so more of these satellites to go (which will apparently double the number of orbiting satellites), there's big questions being asked. Image below shows before and after images of same area (although it doesn't say its the same exposure time) ... click to see a bit better the images as I cut and pasted the image and its a tad small! Couple of links where it is explained how the 60 Iridium satellites released a few decades ago are still making their presence felt by proper scientific observatories as well as us amateurs seeing flares. So Musk is saying the small Starlink satellites will rise to larger orbits .... but heck they sure seem visible right now according to that picture above. Anyhow, interesting read. Perhaps it will lead to really incredible advances in low light, highly sensitive cameras with short exposures becoming the norm (a boom in VA / EAA equipment and software?)? cnet link to article on Starlinks effectNew York Times article on Starlink
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Post by vondragonnoggin on Jun 7, 2019 5:15:26 GMT
After releasing just 60 or so, with two thousand or so more of these satellites to go (which will apparently double the number of orbiting satellites), there's big questions being asked. Image below shows before and after images of same area (although it doesn't say its the same exposure time) ... click to see a bit better the images as I cut and pasted the image and its a tad small! Couple of links where it is explained how the 60 Iridium satellites released a few decades ago are still making their presence felt by proper scientific observatories as well as us amateurs seeing flares. So Musk is saying the small Starlink satellites will rise to larger orbits .... but heck they sure seem visible right now according to that picture above. Anyhow, interesting read. Perhaps it will lead to really incredible advances in low light, highly sensitive cameras with short exposures becoming the norm (a boom in VA / EAA equipment and software?)? cnet link to article on Starlinks effectNew York Times article on StarlinkThe number is 12,000 for final number of satellites. www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/spacex-launches-starlink-satellites/OneWeb also plans on about 660 and Jeff Bezo’s plans to launch 3236 within 2-5 years spacenews.com/amazon-planning-3236-satellite-constellation-for-internet-connectivity/I would imagine that competing companies from China and Russia at the minimum will also want to get their own satellite constellations up. The numbers could grow to staggering proportions and seriously impact radio, visual, and photographic astronomy and also pose a serious threat for a Kessler Syndrome situation with zero effort being first put into cleanup of the current >900,000 untrackable debris objects due to size being too small as well as the estimated 20,000+ trackable pieces of space debris that are still large enough to track. aerospace.org/article/space-debris-and-space-traffic-managementen.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_debris
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Post by howie1 on Jun 7, 2019 10:59:20 GMT
Crikey! So who gave Musk and everyone thinking about these small but numerous satellites the ok? Sounds very bad!
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Post by Dragon Man on Jun 7, 2019 11:40:32 GMT
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Post by vondragonnoggin on Jun 7, 2019 11:51:56 GMT
Crikey! So who gave Musk and everyone thinking about these small but numerous satellites the ok? Sounds very bad! FCC and ITU gave the ok for this. The worst thing is I like Space X’s previous efforts and Elon Musk’s enthusiasm for space but the arrogant SOB when confronted on twitter tweets out that telescopes should be space-based and ground-based telescopes should be a thing of the past. He wouldn’t be able to do what he does without all the information ground-based telescopes have given the scientific communities. He says because “atmospheric attenuation is terrible”. This was an older tweet though. I don’t think he is being so arrogant about it now. They are facing increasing backlash as this gets digested by the Astronomy communities though. Maybe not too late to curb it a bit, but money drives this with an estimated 40 billion a year from lower cost internet to the higher number of people. Make no mistake about it, this is not for lofty goals of helping humanity - it is a cash cow for those getting in early.
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Post by vondragonnoggin on Jun 7, 2019 12:08:17 GMT
Forgive me guys but I can’t hold it in any longer on this. I’m no eco-radical tree hugger by any means but do appreciate all the things the Earth has to offer. Rant on: I find this deeply disturbing and more concerned that we aren’t focusing a cleanup effort first, but that is the big problem. Cleanup is not profitable. These satellite constellations are being sold to be for the greater good of getting low cost internet worldwide. We were also sold on the benefits of plastic and benefits of nuclear power and look how we have progressed with these benefits to mankind. The evidence lies in plastic storms and garbage islands three times the size of France and in waste dumps buried in landfills poorly marked or with a claim of dilution in Ocean dumps with half lives in the tens of thousands of years. The evidence of cancerous tumors plaguing the surrounding areas of landfills and islands in the vicinity of ocean dumps. Now we’ll have to contend with space pollution and the possibility of Earth-locking ourselves because it is impossible to navigate through rings of space debris. Sure, the satellites aren’t going to cause cancer like the nuclear dumps and waste left without cleanup. Or are they? Already projected and suspected tumors from high speed cellular and ever growing signal strengths in close vicinity to the softer portions of the skull. This will allow the higher speeds of data transfer without limitations of speed of light through fiber optic. This will be interconnected laser speeds in orbit and microwave transmissions to earth. All this going on and some people dismissing this with claims of “don’t worry, software algorithms will be able to get rid of satellite streaks through photos” - as if that is the largest picture of the threat we should be looking at. We just get an amazing first photo of a black hole with the EHT and now find there is great concern for further data from EHT and LSST because of all the radio interference. Meanwhile Musk gets flippant on twitter and tweets out that telescopes should be space-based rather than ground-based anyway. Exactly what algorithm am I to use for my Night Vision visual astronomy that doesn’t use cameras or computers but still picks up everything from birds to jets to satellites to bugs flying through the FOV? There has been a number of threads about this on other forums and a lot of people dismissive of the potential impact this has. Let’s see, what are the odds this will go exactly as planned like so many other ventures have gone exactly as planned and impact well thought out and completely predictable.......oh yeah, slim to none. Rant off. Carry on.
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Post by davy.... Shirva.. on Jun 8, 2019 0:23:50 GMT
Mmmm where do I stand on this,, to be honest it's just another nail in the Astronomy coffin,, when I started in 2011 the weather was not good for Astronomy but as time has went by,, I can definitely say the weather for Astronomy is now so bad ,, I wonder what Astronomy will be available to me next year. Yes the bloke with the name,, I actually thought was a bottle of perfume,, is making it worse,, or is it that bad already ,,it doesn't make a difference. Yip deffo in it for the fame and money,, maybe the wee spinning balls he is putting up can incorporate a shield technology to protect the ozone layer. Humans are destroying the earth,, the earth can't sustain the damage we do. Population is growing and so is the mountains of rubbish on land and sea,, maybe with faster internet we can complain about killing of the earth,,faster
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Post by vondragonnoggin on Jun 8, 2019 1:47:34 GMT
This also makes me wonder who is going to pay to get computers and smartphones into the hands of all those people that don’t have services right now but will get it once Starlink is up and functional. Is there some partnership with a phone manufacturer or computer manufacturer? Is the whole world going to be like “Dude, I’m getting a Dell!” or maybe it’s iPhones for all or Samsung’s For all. It’s not going to be Huawei for the US at least.
Wonder what kind of spreading of the wealth was planned and extra funding given for vested interests in selling the devices to take advantage of all this high speed internet everywhere?
Even worse, they interview some astronomer that gives a number of 10,000 astronomers might get affected by this. CN alone has over 110,000 unique member names. I’m sure they all aren’t active, but all astronomers aren’t members. What about SGL membership? Astronomy Forums membership, Ice in Space membership, all the Yahoo groups, the VAF (number one video astronomy forum!)
What about all the businesses involved in the amateur astronomy equipment distribution or manufacture? The Sponsor companies for the websites like Astronomics or FLO?
This could have potential impact to a lot of small and large businesses and drive prices up as well. Who wants to pay more for equipment less and less capable because of satellite interference when weather concerns are already making people question investments in the equipment?
As Davy mentioned - another nail in the coffin of amateur astronomy. Light pollution growing, space pollution growing. Maybe I should think about stopping any further purchases for awhile. Long enough to see how this pans out in a 5 year span.
Plot twist - dependence on satellite communications grow to a point of critical electrical grid communication using satellites and more and more electricity used for the new computers being brought online to take advantage of our newly connected world and some satellite disasters unpredicted happen that cause massive blackouts and electrical loss allowing me to get new uses for my Night Vision equipment on terrestrial targets. Astronomers and regular folk alike finally get views of space without light pollution and decide its important again to preserve it. 😎
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Post by howie1 on Jun 8, 2019 1:54:47 GMT
..... maybe with faster internet we can complain about killing of the earth,,faster LOL! ROFL! That's my morning laugh right there. What a great comment. Says it all right there LOL
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Post by davy.... Shirva.. on Jun 9, 2019 7:32:15 GMT
Von could be on to something here,, If this has made Von stop and think,, am I going to be wasting money on the hobby if I can't get full use or enjoyment out of it. So we are in at the start of this venture,, Mr musk's firing up a load of satellites, why not do a bit of a study on how it impacts the hobby,, Plenty of before the deployment images and then assess how it has impacted your time on the telescope,, See if we can work a way round it. Way I see it,, long exposure astrophotography is going to get murdered by the deployment of these satellites,, So how would this affect the production of dedicated Astronomy camera production.
Would it be killed off due to folk packing in the hobby or Would it bring in better suited camera's and techniques,,, faster and more sensitive camera's that can pull in more photons faster or will it be software improvement. As a teaching forum we should look more at,, Is it still going to be possible to image. Do we look at imaging remotely, set up software to take 3 minutes of video or whatever time gap between satellite Passover in your field of view.
Is night vision with it's real time views the way to go,, is intregration or time lapse going to be obsolete. What do you guys think
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Post by vondragonnoggin on Jun 9, 2019 9:31:17 GMT
Would go a long way with astronomers if Musk would develop a lower cost EMCCD or ICCD camera to make available to the astronomy community.
Something with high QE, low noise, and single photon sensitivity. Current EMCCD and ICCD cameras are extremely expensive though. Also sCMOS could be an option. Integrate with a friendly software package built for astronomy. You’ll have 1-2 second exposures capturing large amounts of data and fast enough for real-time use with a manual mount if live view was all you wanted to do. Tracking mounts would benefit and no need for such precision guiding as the current cameras require for longer subs/integration times.
I mean, if he can put a remote shuttle up to dock with ISS, drop 60 satellites in low earth orbit with a single launch, make fast sports cars that are all electric, he should be able to develop a super-camera at lower cost to work around his satellite constellations. The Science community in general would benefit for scientific imaging. Not sure how happy current companies like Photonics, Princeton Instruments, Andor would like the competition but maybe if one was designed specifically for astronomy, then not really competing for scientific imaging.
The guy also designed and sold a home flame thrower kit for $200 that was highly effective. I’m guessing he could do this if he put his mind and resources to it. Would go a long way in quelling the current complaints of Astro imaging and would probably sell like hotcakes.
Imagine if the software developed for the super camera could take real-time satellite positioning and incorporate that into when it captures to make sure no satellites pass through the exposures. Double the chances of success.
If Musk doesn’t develop it, someone else could cash in on a lot of sales to the astronomy community. A new filtering system to go with that too that detects light source proximity and rejects sources within a certain range so LP is cutout and the super camera could be used right in the middle of the biggest light polluted cities.
We don’t have these things now because no one has committed the resources to those goals. Scientific imaging already has a market and LP not a concern for single photon sensitivity cameras in a lab environment. Military use wants smallest, lightest weight devices, but astronomy can have larger devices that would be impractical as head mounted units but practical still when attached to a telescope. All Musk needs to do is keep those goals in mind for development. It doesn’t disturb any current markets by undercutting with a low price tag because they already have devices geared towards their own goals. We adapt things to make them work for astronomy. It would compete with Astro-specific cameras on the market, but if he partnered with several companies that have current astronomy product, then everyone wins.
That’s a lot of wishful thinking but it is entirely possible technology-wise and would go a long way in keeping the amateur astronomy businesses in sales and interest high.
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Post by davy.... Shirva.. on Jun 9, 2019 11:32:38 GMT
Great stuff vin..you have picked up on what I was putting across. There are opportunities here to make a bad situation better. Why don't we send me musk an email,, yip and I mean it. Has he got the answers to the Astronomy point of view,, probably not,, he will be looking at the bigger picture,, but what if he had feedback,, positive feedback,,, And of course potential to make money out of adversity can't go wrong
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Post by davy.... Shirva.. on Jun 9, 2019 12:02:14 GMT
Never one to sit back. I sent an email to space x media email address,, giving the outline of what would be nice for us little folk in Astronomy. Let's see if I get a reply Yes I'm pretty well off my rocker,, but if you never ask ,you will never know
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Post by davy.... Shirva.. on Jun 9, 2019 12:26:49 GMT
Would go a long way with astronomers if Musk would develop a lower cost EMCCD or ICCD camera to make available to the astronomy community. Something with high QE, low noise, and single photon sensitivity. Current EMCCD and ICCD cameras are extremely expensive though. Also sCMOS could be an option. Integrate with a friendly software package built for astronomy. You’ll have 1-2 second exposures capturing large amounts of data and fast enough for real-time use with a manual mount if live view was all you wanted to do. Tracking mounts would benefit and no need for such precision guiding as the current cameras require for longer subs/integration times. I mean, if he can put a remote shuttle up to dock with ISS, drop 60 satellites in low earth orbit with a single launch, make fast sports cars that are all electric, he should be able to develop a super-camera at lower cost to work around his satellite constellations. The Science community in general would benefit for scientific imaging. Not sure how happy current companies like Photonics, Princeton Instruments, Andor would like the competition but maybe if one was designed specifically for astronomy, then not really competing for scientific imaging. The guy also designed and sold a home flame thrower kit for $200 that was highly effective. I’m guessing he could do this if he put his mind and resources to it. Would go a long way in quelling the current complaints of Astro imaging and would probably sell like hotcakes. Imagine if the software developed for the super camera could take real-time satellite positioning and incorporate that into when it captures to make sure no satellites pass through the exposures. Double the chances of success. If Musk doesn’t develop it, someone else could cash in on a lot of sales to the astronomy community. A new filtering system to go with that too that detects light source proximity and rejects sources within a certain range so LP is cutout and the super camera could be used right in the middle of the biggest light polluted cities. We don’t have these things now because no one has committed the resources to those goals. Scientific imaging already has a market and LP not a concern for single photon sensitivity cameras in a lab environment. Military use wants smallest, lightest weight devices, but astronomy can have larger devices that would be impractical as head mounted units but practical still when attached to a telescope. All Musk needs to do is keep those goals in mind for development. It doesn’t disturb any current markets by undercutting with a low price tag because they already have devices geared towards their own goals. We adapt things to make them work for astronomy. It would compete with Astro-specific cameras on the market, but if he partnered with several companies that have current astronomy product, then everyone wins. That’s a lot of wishful thinking but it is entirely possible technology-wise and would go a long way in keeping the amateur astronomy businesses in sales and interest high. We always say,, no one telescope does it all,, but Von has hit it on the head,, what if one camera could.. Zwo has a few that are very sought after. So why hasn't anyone started the ball rolling,, A camera as explained by Von,, very fast and very sensitive,, with state of the art Astronomy capture,, Guiding to the highest level,, but via the main image in the background, the ability to do colour and mono,, even capture lrgb channels. Have the software start and stop when satellites come into your fov. Better stacking features.. This should be achievable by a company,, Mr musk has a big opportunity to change the way Astronomy could be done,, would help backyard astronomer's reach new heights
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Post by Dragon Man on Jun 9, 2019 16:21:32 GMT
. . . am I going to be wasting money on the hobby if I can't get full use or enjoyment out of it. . . . Way I see it,, long exposure astrophotography is going to get murdered by the deployment of these satellites,, What do you guys think The image taken at the Lowell Observatory with all the satellites screaming through it is: 1. A very long exposure. - Video doesn't 'normally' use long exposures, and Visual has no exposure length. 2. Field of View. Their image is about 10 degrees or more wide. - We average about 1 degree or less. There are a lot of satellites in their image because they are looking at a very wide area of sky, and the exposure is long. I currently get the occasional satellite, and it's not a real problem. If I want to keep it as an image I just use a frame without a satellite in it. It won't affect Visual observers either. The only people who will get annoyed are imagers, and they already use software to remove satellite and meteor streaks. Don't get me wrong, I also hate the idea of thousands more satellites floating around up there, but I really don't think they will be the end of astronomy down here. They will just make it harder for serious Astrophotographers. I also don't like the fact that there will be several thousand more objects to fall down on us
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Post by davy.... Shirva.. on Jun 9, 2019 18:11:19 GMT
Will be interesting to see how another few thousand in formation affects the field of view and time interval between each one
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Post by vondragonnoggin on Jun 9, 2019 20:51:46 GMT
Will be interesting to see how another few thousand in formation affects the field of view and time interval between each one Some attempts at figuring out the math for prediction www.cloudynights.com/topic/663465-cmon-guys-lets-do-math-what-is-the-possibility-of-a-satellite-to-ruin-my-exposure/I get satellites visually with NV quite a bit already. It’s either satellites, or some really fast jets or UFO’s. NV picks up anything really that can both reflect sunlight in outer orbits or reflect ground light like planes, birds, bats, balloons. NV is relatively low power though unless cranking up magnification for galaxies, globs, and PN’s. Might be so tiny at low power that it doesn’t register any significant response on the phosphor output window. Might be just enough to look like background noise. I think the real test for NV will be under very dark skies where people filter less aggressively. Those taking pictures with intensifiers are generally keeping to 30 sec or less and some even 15 sec or less. Usually no stacking, single shots and not overly processed as the goal is to replicate the live view. I’m very curious to see if really as invisible as Musk is claiming they will be at night. I gotta wonder about 12,000 500 lb dishwasher sized satellites with solar panels being invisible. I don’t know if One Web and Bezos satellites are same size. Assuming so from comparisons on predicted constellation models.
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Post by howie1 on Jun 9, 2019 23:17:11 GMT
................... Perhaps it will lead to really incredible advances in low light, highly sensitive cameras with short exposures becoming the norm (a boom in VA / EAA equipment and software?)? Not trying to boast or nuthin, but my very first post when I kicked off this thread I did say exactly that .... see above
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Post by davy.... Shirva.. on Jun 11, 2019 1:21:39 GMT
Yes you are,,, good man lol
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