Hi all, well I was not sure on what part of the forum to put this but as I'm a beginner this will do. Now I seem to be confusing myself a fair bit on the difference between imaging and live video feed. when I use to do video Astronomy in the 90's security camera from the scope into the monitor analogue! Play with the settings to get the best picture. In today's world the cameras are better more sensitive so the picture is better . So to me live feed is video Astronomy.
so as soon as you stack one image on another this is imaging! Tell me if I'm wrong ?
I only ask as it helps me understand to help me build up my set up because to me it's such a grey area , because people are calling Video Astronomy stacking images live feed well to me that's not correct it's not live close but not live. How can a 10 x 30 sec stack be a live lmage! this is lmaging! Not a live feed.
Ok it's not 4 hour shot then photoshopped to hell to make it look pretty! That's imaging to the max .
I hope you understand what I'm trying to point out because I want to use the "kiss" method and it's something Ken wrote a while back I keep thinking imaging but what I see and read it's all imaging!
Taken from admin posting,,,hope it clarifies,, to be honest😂 it still baffles us,, and I'm shure the day will come when all is regarded as imaging,, but for now this is our guidelines..
Quote ￼￼￼ Images can only be posted In video astronomy techniques.. images section and must be put in appropriate category
Live astronomy stacked,exposures under 17 seconds
Near live astronomy,exposures of 17 seconds but within 5 minutes
Makes no matter what subject you image,solar,lunar,deep sky,meteor the image will fall into one of the categories, only drawback is you may need to make several posts to different sections depending on techniques used. Davy
Man,,,, it's 4.46 am,,what a bloomin question. Lol😂. Few year back it was easy,, video astronomy was done by video cameras,,,easy,,, so we'll call it the video astronomy forum,,, then some buggerlugs came along with imaging cameras with software that allowed it to mimic a video camera,,, up to this point the CCTV modified camera internal integration or stacking had only grew to 1024 just under 20 seconds,, with the new usb digital cameras and custom software the exposure time could be increased . And some did it to the extreme and said it was video astronomy,,, So where does astrophotography start and video stop,,, nobody knew and it created merry hell on forums who decided to call video astronomy,, electronic assisted astronomy or something like that.. to appease all.. We decided for right or wrong that we would define video astronomy as a lot of members did not wish to lose there video astronomer identity,, So live astronomy captured images are to be put in live astronomy section,, i.e. A Samsung scb camera being used is classed as a live camera it does internal stacking in sense up mode to under 10 seconds.
The Phil dyer and the mk1revoloution / ln300 does internal stacking to under 20 seconds.
So most newer usb cameras ( loose term before someone hits me with,, but what about a webcam 😉 ) would or could be used in live or near live,, depending on user settings in the software,, under 17 seconds live streaming stacked images are live. Over 17 seconds streamed stacked images but below 5 minutes are near live. On this forum... And over 5 minutes unstacked,unstreamed images is astrophotography .
But trends change equipment changes forum rules change you name it ,,it changes lol
I even give myself a sore head trying to define/ justify my method of astronomy
Canon 600d weapon of choice,, Stills camera that has video feature. Use it as a still camera,,I'm doing astrophotography I use it in video mode,,I'm doing video astronomy I use software😂 backyard Eos or canon utilities and astrotoaster I do still photographs with a 17 second exposure the exposures are collected by astrotoaster and stacked and streamed,, it live video going by our rules,, confusing yes,,it gets worse Same kit ,, exposures set at 4.59 seconds, stacked and streamed,,, it's near live video astronomy,,on here Confused and bewildered it gets worse In backyard Eos the software has a planetary mode that works as video capture ,,it captures and stacks without astrotoaster, on a stacking loop capture, It's video and live,, but when I take an image from that capture it's astrophotography is it or ,,,is it ?..
So we kinda have to go on trust a bit,, unless a a streamed video is put up,, we are all displaying astrophotography, So my advice is ,,, it's a hobby it's done for fun,, mistakes happen in life and on here. SO DONT get your knickers in a twist enjoy the forum and the hobby,, we don't carry guns and you won't get shot for it,,,😉
So now I'm up.. Let's turn the wording about. What is video astronomy now
Cameras have changed a bit over the years since I started and I would consider myself a newbie yet because of the constant changes in cameras and technology.
So let's have a look at it and get a discussion going on views
So we basically started with low res hight speed camera's,,loose definition.. and we looked at the moon and planets,,then came lx modes on webcams that allowed us to do a bit of deep sky,, And all is well everyone is happy because we have the best we can afford technology wise,, so we have the CCTV revolution and up comes CCTV cameras that can see better in the dark but also give us an lx mode or sense up mode,, video long exposure has just been released to the masses,,, no longer do we need to rip apart a Philips webcam and destroy it trying to do an lx mod,,the CCTV camera is ready to go ,,use it as is or rip out the factory ir filter and you have the same equipment as most video astronomers are on an even platform all over the world..
So where now,, Ah ,, because we are using long exposure we now have electrical noise in the image ,,, let's cool the camera,, so it's modding time across the globe,, we fit fans and peltier devices and all is good again. Wait. No it's not We need bigger sensor than 1/3rd ,,we can gather more photons with a bigger chip. So it all starts again looking for the holly grail in cameras.
The digital age,, what a nightmare,,every camera with a usb cable is touted as good for video astronomy,,, No lessons were learned in the analogue years. So we now have dedicated astronomy cameras and we are getting there,,folk have finally woke up and said,, We need a good sensitive sensor and big to capture loads of photons
We need software that can give us variable exposure settings and stacking
And let's throw in cooling as well as standard and I think you might have cracked,, the holy grail video astronomy camera.. Oh hell it's an astrophotography camera with modified software 😂 We could all had made a fortune a few years ago if we saw this coming...
My prediction for the future..were all going to be classed as imagers,, it's going to happen just look at the evolution of video astronomy,,it was the poor man's attempt at astrophotography in some folks eyes to others it was live / near live astronomy ,, even eaa. Next up,, it's imaging😉 My opinion what's yours lol
Telescopes,lol ,, don't get me started on these guy's.. Ok since I'm up and on a roll. What the hell are main stream telescope manufacturers on,, Stupid pills The hobby has been turned up on its head with cameras and software and these folk are missing the boat. In my honest humble opinion and no need to shoot the messenger😂
So where do we start Ah,, cameras,, so we have now got sensitive dedicated video astronomy cameras,, and there is the problem. We have moved along in tiny footsteps and found were now trying to fill giants boots.
Prior to the new cameras ,we had half decent camera's in our possession and we could not do any better due to technology,, so we looked at what we could do,, change things optically. We go smaller and faster,, And we hit the ed80 type of scope,, best thing from sliced bread
So we can now make it better,, fire on a focal reducer with a flatner,, bingo we have cracked it , Half decent camera's and a great scope. Then we hit triplets and quad scopes.
Now folks before you go buy a scope Stop and think Where is this all going
It's all going to change,, Astro graph telescopes Yes they are expensive but this is where we are heading in the not so distant future in my opinion.
The cameras available now are very sensitive and will peak at some point in the near future when technology slows down again,, technology moves in circles you get a split of greatness then it slows back in to a cycle again.
So we will then look at things optically again and this trend is starting just now,, look at how many folk are looking at hyperstar ,, a £1200 lens on a £1500 telescope. Maybe the big astro graphs that are around are not far off what we should be looking at.
So with the latest cameras,, in my opinion a large mirror short tube with a built in type hyperstar will be the way to go in the future but by doing this ,, I'm afraid mounts are next unless some clever chap comes up with a cheap way to mass produce a scope like this light weight,, we are going to continually spend money chasing perfection.
davy your a trooper! Coming up with those responses at that time of the morning! And it must be a wee bit chilly up that end of the globe. I understand all that your saying and we have come so far in the past 20 years or even less. So really it's all imaging cool that's fine , so really it's either digital or analog feed to a computer or to a TV.
In my situation I want to put a camera on my scope be whatever that is , feed it to either to a computer or TV and get a live view of the night sky. Not wait for 5 min for a stacked image. To me that not Video Astronomy. Now yes if it's 5 to 10 stacked images that are say 5 sec exposure well is that close to live ! But this is Hyperstar type stuff.
Clarification,, yes lol😉. A7,,, yip another great camera going by posts in cloudy nights.
I would like to see more stuff done with the Altair astro hypercam 178,, if I wasn't saving for observatory I would have had one at Christmas ,,, the images coming through the Altair astro Facebook page are stunning ok it astrophotography but I have asked a chap in France if he would mind trying it with astrotoaster if he got a chance.
I am like Dave, in that I like my views 'Live'. Instant Live. Realtime. It is about 'Observing', not taking pics. The pics we post are really only to show others what we 'observed' and how good it looked with the gear we used to observe it. NOT how good we are at using our gear to take pics.
I did Astrophotography for many years after a short year or two at early Video Astronomy, but for the last 6 years or so I have returned full time to Video. What I learned with Astrophotography has helped in some minor ways with Video Astronomy, but to me they will always be chalk and cheese.
Yes, the lines are blurring, and what many are doing now, what they call Video Astronomy (or EAA) is really Imaging. If they are happy with that, then I am happy for them, because I can't tell them what way to do their own thing.
I can only talk to what I prefer, and what I personally call Video Astronomy.
With my cameras I can see results of very faint objects in about 20 - 30 seconds, but even that is too long. I want 'instant' Even in the 2 - 3 seconds I see brighter objects is still too slow. I want a camera that I can point to the sky through my scopes and see the object absolutely instantly 'Live' and when the scope moves so does the object without the little 1 or 2 second star trail jumps that we see now with the best of the best.
I know such cameras exist but they start at around $10,000 and go up from there.
I contacted one company about their $10,000 camera that gives instant views (this one) but because they haven't tested it for Astronomy the chap said it will be no good to me because it doesn't have sens-up. I told him because of his cameras fantastic 'Live' sensitivity it doesn't need sens-up, but he still insisted it would be no good to me because I asked about sens-up and their camera doesn't have it!!! Amazing what gets lost in translation!
Rather than try sell me his $10,000 camera he did his best to talk me out of buying one.
We have members in here covering all aspects of Video Astronomy (some don't even agree with the term 'Video Astronomy') and all power to them. But I'm of the belief that if the exposure gets too long or has to be stacked, then it's imaging. But that's OK if that's how you like to do it. But me, I really want 'instant' and to me that's TRUE Video Astronomy.
Longer exposures, stacked, and tweaked on-the-fly is OK as that is what is available to us at the moment. But I really draw the line at anything saved then altered or 'post-processed. That is 100% 'Imaging' in anyone's book. I'm not against 'Imaging'. I may return to it myself one day now that I have a permanent observatory to use.
However, if you do Imaging, don't call it Video Astronomy. And that's the major difference. Relatively fast exposures (say, up to about 20 seconds per frame), stacked (up to about 3 stacked frames), tweaked on-the-fly, and saved as an image of what you 'Observed' within those parameters is fine. Others will say exposures up to 2 minutes each, stacked continuously ad nauseum are still Video Astronomy. OK. But tell us the exposure times and stack numbers.
Unfortunately I see broadcasts online where the broadcaster is doing 2 or 3 minute exposures (sometimes even longer) and does a stack of about 10+ frames, and insists that it is 'Live' video astronomy. That is not Video Astronomy. Half an hour or more to see the stacked image is NOT Live! It may look nice but it makes for a very boring broadcast, and it won't work at an outreach night.
So far to date, no scientific body or Astronomical organisation has set any rules or even guidelines on what constitutes 'Video Astronomy', so without it, it is up to our common sense and supplied information with each posted image so viewers can determine if it fits their own specifics.
Best I can do to explain my views on the point
__________________________________________ Ken James - Snake Valley Australia CAMERAS: Samsung SCB-4000, Mallincam Xtreme & Xterminator, 3 different Revolution Imagers, 2 ToUcams, SX-5c, Canon 350d, 2 different IMX224's (an RI & RT) and an RT178. Broadcaster on NSN as 'Snake Valley Australia' HERE --> www.nightskiesnetwork.com/ - Video Astronomy Website: ballaratman.wix.com/videoastronomy
I think Video Astronomy is in the eye of the beholder. It’s whatever you say it is.
Personally I use video as an observation tool and short exposures without too much fiddling with cameras or computers is where I want to be.
Ken is spot on when he says “The pics we post are really only to show others what we 'observed' and how good it looked with the gear we used to observe it. NOT how good we are at using our gear to take pics.”
If I decided to observe a quasar 2 billion light years away I’d screw the camera flat to the boards and if it needed 15 minutes of stacking and other manipulations to be able to see it that’s OK. For me that’s still video astronomy.
Personally, I view it all as imaging, even real time on the screen. The definition of "Image", according to Merrium-Webster is a visual representation of something: as (1) : a likeness of an object produced on a photographic material (2) : a picture produced on an electronic display (as a television or computer screen).
So, in my view, whether you're viewing it on a monitor or a jpg image, it's still an image. There's nothing magical about clicking a save button. The process of capturing that is called "Imaging". What some call "imaging" I see more as slang for astrophotography. All astrophotography is imaging but not all imaging is astrophography.
I try not to get to hung up on technically what it is or not. I've never really saw the need to break it down so much. My view is if I'm taking it for the purposes of viewing it now, it's video astronomy, whether that exposure takes 1 second or 120 seconds or whether it's a single snapshot or a stack of 20. As long as I'm there to see it, and there isn't any post processing going on, it's coming in live (though possible slow), it's video astronomy.
Robert Johnson - Escondido, CA (33° N) Scopes: Orion ED80T-CF, Celestron 130SLT, Orion Skyview Pro 8", Celestron Skywatcher 12" Dob Mount: AVX Cameras: ZWO ASI185MC, ASI224MC, Starlight Xpress Ultrastar-C, Canon 1000D
Post by Rick in NWArk on Jan 24, 2017 19:59:08 GMT
I do about 90% video astronomy in that its a pure live image - refreshed based upon the camera's exposure setting.
I am interested in doing some stacking. Some of it is to get pretty pictures, but also some of it is to get more detail out of objects that I am "near live" observing.
I draw the line there -- basically, it is as if I were in front of a lot of folks at an event. I am either going directly live or a little bit of stacking so they don't have to wait to long to see the results.
To me, anything that hits a disk drive or uses external software to process an image for longer than just a few stacks over a minute or two is Astrophotography.
As always rick your math's are bang on ,, given I've had two weeks approx of crap weather,, when am I due a clear night,,
add In factors like the boss is ramming work in like it's going out if fashion and I'm not as young as I used to be and falling asleep after dinner and something always crops up you can't wiggle out of